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Thread: Can't Sleep - Blow It Up Thread

  1. #1
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    Can't Sleep - Blow It Up Thread

    Trade 1: CarMart and Gyorko to Houston for Bregman, Tucker and Perez

    Trade 2: Rosenthal and Oh to the Nats for Robles

    Trade 3: Leake, Lynn and Pham to LA for Bellinger

    In 3 years:

    Sierra - cf
    Bregman - 2b
    Robles - lf
    Tucker-rf
    Bellinger - 1b
    Kelly - c
    DeJong - 3b
    D. Perez - ss

    Reyes - sp
    Weaver - sp
    Flaherty - sp
    Perez - sp
    Alcantara - sp

    Trade Carpenter, Wong, Diaz, Piscotty, Grichuk, Fowler, Wacha at various times, targeting strong armed young relief prospects.

    Hedge your bet on the youngsters: All above frees up 120M+ to target Harper, Machado, and the best SP on the market after 2018.

    Even without the all-star free agents, that team would hit, hit for power, run, play defense, and pitch like a true contender.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by sabertooth5185 View Post
    Trade 1: CarMart and Gyorko to Houston for Bregman, Tucker and Perez

    Trade 2: Rosenthal and Oh to the Nats for Robles

    Trade 3: Leake, Lynn and Pham to LA for Bellinger

    In 3 years:

    Sierra - cf
    Bregman - 2b
    Robles - lf
    Tucker-rf
    Bellinger - 1b
    Kelly - c
    DeJong - 3b
    D. Perez - ss

    Reyes - sp
    Weaver - sp
    Flaherty - sp
    Perez - sp
    Alcantara - sp

    Trade Carpenter, Wong, Diaz, Piscotty, Grichuk, Fowler, Wacha at various times, targeting strong armed young relief prospects.

    Hedge your bet on the youngsters: All above frees up 120M+ to target Harper, Machado, and the best SP on the market after 2018.

    Even without the all-star free agents, that team would hit, hit for power, run, play defense, and pitch like a true contender.
    You're not as insane as you may feel.

    The Cardinals are clearly not willing to "pay up" with money for transformational talent.

    There's another way to get it. it's to pay up with talent - and trade some other team a pennant or two.

    As long as you get what you need in return, it's worth it.

    Credit to Oz for putting this sort of thing out there.

    Bold and daring... and so clearly not anything John Mozeliak would ever ever do.
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    You don't trade a Carlos Martinez. You just don't. This team is in dire straights at the ML level currently but there is talent throughout the system. If we aren't contending come the deadline I'd love to see Carpenter shipped out.
    He just seems to lack interest in the field. Lynn could bring a good haul. Oh as well. Maybe, maybe you trade Rosie.

    But you don't make plans to blow this team
    Up on May 31st seeing the division as it is. John, you know pitching wins. And Bullpens of course. We have the starting pitching, let's hope Mowtie can fix the relief corp. To his credit he's done it before. But I agree with you, a bopper is needed. That's the part Mowtie will fail at most likely!
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Goombah! View Post
    You don't trade a Carlos Martinez. You just don't.
    I would argue that anyone outside Kelly should be considered trade bait. Martinez could be had, but you would have to ask for the moon in return. Leake would be a wise move, if you could get him to waive his NTC to play for a real team.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by sabertooth5185 View Post
    All above frees up 120M+ to target Harper, Machado, and the best SP on the market after 2018.

    I laughed when I read this. You know that there are big money teams already planning on getting these stud players and have a legit plan in place to sign them. Teams that aren't pissing away ungodly money on loafers like Fowler, and bum relievers like Cecil, and are saving every penny to win them over and ultimately sign them. Moe won't even come in second place with these other teams, because unlike the international players, these guys will be making BIG money. Definitely more than Moe will be "allowed" to spend.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Goombah! View Post
    You don't trade a Carlos Martinez. You just don't. This team is in dire straights at the ML level currently but there is talent throughout the system. If we aren't contending come the deadline I'd love to see Carpenter shipped out.
    He just seems to lack interest in the field. Lynn could bring a good haul. Oh as well. Maybe, maybe you trade Rosie.

    But you don't make plans to blow this team
    Up on May 31st seeing the division as it is. John, you know pitching wins. And Bullpens of course. We have the starting pitching, let's hope Mowtie can fix the relief corp. To his credit he's done it before. But I agree with you, a bopper is needed. That's the part Mowtie will fail at most likely!
    Agree Cmart is our best pitcher with the best stuff.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Goombah! View Post
    You don't trade a Carlos Martinez. You just don't. This team is in dire straights at the ML level currently but there is talent throughout the system. If we aren't contending come the deadline I'd love to see Carpenter shipped out.
    He just seems to lack interest in the field. Lynn could bring a good haul. Oh as well. Maybe, maybe you trade Rosie.

    But you don't make plans to blow this team
    Up on May 31st seeing the division as it is. John, you know pitching wins. And Bullpens of course. We have the starting pitching, let's hope Mowtie can fix the relief corp. To his credit he's done it before. But I agree with you, a bopper is needed. That's the part Mowtie will fail at most likely!
    Gooms,

    It's clear Moe doesn't have permission or the spending authority to obtain a run producer.

    He also has proven woefully unsuccessful at drafting one.

    The only other way to do it is to pay up with talent.

    The Cardinals have the young pitching other teams want.

    But, Oz is right. At the deadline, Lance Lynn is the type of guy another team will pay up to get... you "trade them a pennant", you can get their organizational crown jewels.
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    Gents, we're not the only ones looking at this team and shaking our heads. Every other GM worth his salt looks at other rosters and marks guys they may want. IMO, only Gyorko, Lynn, Martinez, Molina and possibly Leake now have positive trade value (meaning a team would be willing to part with real future starters to acquire one or all of them.) I do not see Martinez or Molina going any where which leaves three guys.

    Rosenthal, Diaz, Oh and possibly Marp are guys you would trade from weakness and get nothing solid in return. They're all performing just poorly enough (or have health questions) that another GM would be looking to steal them for their very iffy upsides.

    Everyone else is simply filler.
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    With the defense that Moe has assembled we have no chance unless we get performances like Cmart last night every game. We are terrible on the base paths shoddy on defense and have a piss poor manager who will run the pitching staff into the ground. 85's assessment of our core players is pretty much it.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by barnbird View Post
    With the defense that Moe has assembled we have no chance unless we get performances like Cmart last night every game. We are terrible on the base paths shoddy on defense and have a piss poor manager who will run the pitching staff into the ground. 85's assessment of our core players is pretty much it.
    And this is the point of my post. Adding a couple of complementary players at the deadline won't fix the gaping holes afflicting this team. The defense and baserunning are terrible. The bullpen is terrible. We have no middle of the order. The only thing keeping us out of last place is starting pitching.

    If you subscribe to blowing it up, Martinez has to go. He's the one guy that can bring back multiple cornerstone players. Leake will never be more valuable than he is right now. Trade from our one strength to ensure the future is brighter.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by sabertooth5185 View Post
    If you subscribe to blowing it up, Martinez has to go. He's the one guy that can bring back multiple cornerstone players. Leake will never be more valuable than he is right now. Trade from our one strength to ensure the future is brighter.
    Lynn is the best candidate to trade. FA at the end of year, and not a guy we will be paying in the future. And we can put Lyons or Weaver in there and not lose much for the last two months.

    Leake's contract make it unlikely we receive much in return.

    C-Mart you keep. Those guys don't grow on trees.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by sabertooth5185 View Post
    And this is the point of my post. Adding a couple of complementary players at the deadline won't fix the gaping holes afflicting this team. The defense and baserunning are terrible. The bullpen is terrible. We have no middle of the order. The only thing keeping us out of last place is starting pitching.

    If you subscribe to blowing it up, Martinez has to go. He's the one guy that can bring back multiple cornerstone players. Leake will never be more valuable than he is right now. Trade from our one strength to ensure the future is brighter.
    If it was any other GM perhaps I do not trust Moe I am afraid he will not get value for Cmart , Lynn on the other hand is probably a goner anyway if we can get something of value ?
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    Arent they like 1.5 games out? Seems these days rosters are fluid. Remember that year they traded colby? Stay close. Make trades late with teams out of it. Make the playoffs. We all agree the playoffs are acrap shoot. Stay calm. Keep your powder dry. Cant win it all if not in playoffs. 1.5 out after 50 ganes. Keep calm and cardinal on.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by taiwan killian View Post
    Arent they like 1.5 games out? Seems these days rosters are fluid. Remember that year they traded colby? Stay close. Make trades late with teams out of it. Make the playoffs. We all agree the playoffs are acrap shoot. Stay calm. Keep your powder dry. Cant win it all if not in playoffs. 1.5 out after 50 ganes. Keep calm and cardinal on.
    Have you watched them play?
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by sabertooth5185 View Post
    If you subscribe to blowing it up, Martinez has to go. He's the one guy that can bring back multiple cornerstone players.
    No, that's the opposite of what you do. Martinez is young, cheap and signed long-term. He's a guy you hold onto. You trade everyone who is scheduled to reach free agency before the year which you target as the year which you suspect to compete. Even if the Cardinals blew it up, we would expect them to be competing again in 2020 or 2021 at the latest. Martinez is controllable through 2023 so you hang onto the guy.

    If you blow it up, Oh, Lynn, Marp & Gyorko are the guys to move. With Gyorko, you can sell high. With Marp, you sell before he tanks his value. Oh & Lynn are FAs to be.

    Leake I'm afraid isn't tradeable until the after the 2018 season. Nobody is going to trade for him to pay him $55m over the next 3.5 years, but someone will likely be interested in the final 2 years for the price of $31m

    Wong is a great trade candidate given that you have Garcia & Dejong as natural replacements, but you've got to sell high on him.

    Peralta is an obvious trade candidate, but frankly he's more likely to be released. He is so lousy I don't see anyone giving us anything for the guy, even if we eat the whole salary.

    With Oh traded you use Rosie at closer. If he finishes strong, you trade him this winter & showcase Seigrist at closer to begin 2018. If he has success, you trade him next July to someone looking for an 8th inning/closer insurance guy.
    Last edited by TCB 6-4-3; 06-01-2017 at 01:21 PM.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by sabertooth5185 View Post
    Trade 1: CarMart and Gyorko to Houston for Bregman, Tucker and Perez

    Trade 2: Rosenthal and Oh to the Nats for Robles

    Trade 3: Leake, Lynn and Pham to LA for Bellinger
    I don't think trade 2 or 3 has a snowball's chance in hell of being accepted by the other party. The Nats are steadfastly refusing to include Robles in a deal for a closer and throwing in yet another iffy relief arm isn't going to change their minds.

    Bellinger for a pending FA, a guy who's worth almost exactly what his contract will pay him and a nothing OFer who wouldn't play for them anyway? HA! That's a comically bad offer. They LOVE Bellinger out there and you're not getting him for less than Reyes, if you'd even get him for that.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Oz-iz-God View Post
    I don't think trade 2 or 3 has a snowball's chance in hell of being accepted by the other party. The Nats are steadfastly refusing to include Robles in a deal for a closer and throwing in yet another iffy relief arm isn't going to change their minds.

    Bellinger for a pending FA, a guy who's worth almost exactly what his contract will pay him and a nothing OFer who wouldn't play for them anyway? HA! That's a comically bad offer. They LOVE Bellinger out there and you're not getting him for less than Reyes, if you'd even get him for that.
    Maybe...but timing is everything and the Dodgers haven't won it all for almost 30 years. Perhaps their zeal for a flag makes them susceptible. Pham would replace Bellinger in LF and their lineup doesn't suffer for it...right now. Leake and Lynn turn their rotation from a question into a strength.

    Look...I'm just spitballing. But I think you might be over valuing prospects to teams that are in win right now mode.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by TCB 6-4-3 View Post
    No, that's the opposite of what you do. Martinez is young, cheap and signed long-term. He's a guy you hold onto. You trade everyone who is scheduled to reach free agency before the year which you target as the year which you suspect to compete. Even if the Cardinals blew it up, we would expect them to be competing again in 2020 or 2021 at the latest. Martinez is controllable through 2023 so you hang onto the guy.

    If you blow it up, Oh, Lynn, Marp & Gyorko are the guys to move. With Gyorko, you can sell high. With Marp, you sell before he tanks his value. Oh & Lynn are FAs to be.

    Leake I'm afraid isn't tradeable until the after the 2018 season. Nobody is going to trade for him to pay him $55m over the next 3.5 years, but someone will likely be interested in the final 2 years for the price of $31m

    Wong is a great trade candidate given that you have Garcia & Dejong as natural replacements, but you've got to sell high on him.

    Peralta is an obvious trade candidate, but frankly he's more likely to be released. He is so lousy I don't see anyone giving us anything for the guy, even if we eat the whole salary.

    With Oh traded you use Rosie at closer. If he finishes strong, you trade him this winter & showcase Seigrist at closer to begin 2018. If he has success, you trade him next July to someone looking for an 8th inning/closer insurance guy.
    That's all well and good, but Siegrist is in the death throes of this stage of his career.

    Being one of Mike Matheny's trusted relievers includes a terrible price to be paid by your throwing arm.
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    I don't think any of these guys have all that much value, save for Martinez.

    Blowing this team up is just shedding payroll.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by sabertooth5185 View Post
    Maybe...but timing is everything and the Dodgers haven't won it all for almost 30 years. Perhaps their zeal for a flag makes them susceptible. Pham would replace Bellinger in LF and their lineup doesn't suffer for it...right now. Leake and Lynn turn their rotation from a question into a strength.

    Look...I'm just spitballing. But I think you might be over valuing prospects to teams that are in win right now mode.
    I'm not sure Freidman will ever truly be in 'win right now' mode. That's simply not how he operates. I think he sees 3-4 years left with Kershaw as a horse and in the process he'll be getting better and better with Urias, Seager and Bellinger growing up around him.
    Friedman is very much a 'long-game' executive.

    And while you can make an argument that Rizzo SHOULD be in win-now mode in Washington, he's already refused to part with Robles in deals for closers. I'm just basing the likely outcome on what his reactions thus far have been. Sure, 'in for a penny, in for a pound' may be the right approach given what they gave up for Eaton and the likely departure of Harper after next season, but he isn't there. And ultimately, if Robles hit the market, I think he could easily have Colome+ for him and that's going to be more valuable than pending FA Oh and the erratic wild-card that is Rosenthal. If Robles ended up in play, the Royals would give Herrera and Cain up in a heartbeat. And ultimately it will prove a moot point if Glover continues to pitch well.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Speedy G View Post
    I don't think any of these guys have all that much value, save for Martinez.

    Blowing this team up is just shedding payroll.
    I still think they can play kingmaker in the AL. Carpenter and Lynn could really have massive value to the Astros. They're just absolutely perfect fits for that squad.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by John D View Post
    That's all well and good, but Siegrist is in the death throes of this stage of his career.

    Being one of Mike Matheny's trusted relievers includes a terrible price to be paid by your throwing arm.
    Eh, maybe an ineffective 2017 might just reduce some of his workload and make him a prime candidate for a rebound in 2018? That or his shoulder will finally fall apart.

    Seriously though, I've been predicting a major arm injury for Seigrist each of the last 2 years & frankly, its a miracle he hasn't. He must be a real horse.
    Last edited by TCB 6-4-3; 06-01-2017 at 03:42 PM.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Oz-iz-God View Post
    I still think they can play kingmaker in the AL. Carpenter and Lynn could really have massive value to the Astros. They're just absolutely perfect fits for that squad.
    More than any other team.

    Like Simmons and Vuckovich for Milwaukee
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Oz-iz-God View Post
    I still think they can play kingmaker in the AL. Carpenter and Lynn could really have massive value to the Astros. They're just absolutely perfect fits for that squad.
    Marp was a Luhnow draftee & Im guess he probably has a connection to him for that reason, but I truly doubt Luhnow ever makes a deal with the Cardinals as long as Mozeliak is GM.
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