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Thread: H-1b Visa Abuse

  1. #1
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    H-1b Visa Abuse

    If the GOP were smart, they would make H-1b Visa reform a major issue.

    http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/29/qu...ng-more-h-1bs/

    Some GOPer should propose tying revocation of H-1b's to domestic layoffs.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by CheapSeats View Post
    If the GOP were smart, they would make H-1b Visa reform a major issue.

    http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/29/qu...ng-more-h-1bs/

    Some GOPer should propose tying revocation of H-1b's to domestic layoffs.
    Agreed in full.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by The Iguana View Post
    Agreed in full.
    It is the difference between being the party of free markets vs. the party of big business.
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    You can temporarily block competition for STEM jobs with Asia by cutting the number of people we allow into the US.
    But you're only delaying the inevitable, and perhaps costing us the benefits of at least having the people on-shore.

    This won't solve the fact that we're being out-competed (and cost is an element of that).
    Companies may decide to fully off-shore the jobs, if we don't allow them to bring the talent on-shore.

    In general, we're behaving like modern unions here, trying to to solve a declining cost/benefit/alternative proposition through force by erecting governmental barriers to entry, instead of increasing our competitiveness with BRIC & other developing nations.

    When contracting firms are commonly charging $200/hr for on-shore technical talent, the rest of the world is going to say "That's crazy-high. I'd kill to make half of that." And they're all going to study difficult, uncool subjects like security encryption and network administration and middleware coding harder than us to get them, and coming from areas with lower costs-of-living where tech salaries are still a fortune, they'll loudly ask "why not us?"

    The world is getting smaller, and technology is removing many of the issues with remote work. If isolation is our only solution, we're only delaying the inevitable.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Hutch Fan View Post
    You can temporarily block competition for STEM jobs with Asia by cutting the number of people we allow into the US.
    But you're only delaying the inevitable, and perhaps costing us the benefits of at least having the people on-shore.
    The ones hired through our colleges, though, are not coming via H1-B's, but usually something like a TN visa. I think that's also less objectionable than the usual H1-B situation.

    The bigger question is a harder one to answer. Technology makes it far easier to move labor around, at least labor like this. That's going to drop living standards here in America - indeed, it already is.

    Having had to deal with such hiring issues myself, I will add one other note: I'm not impressed with the average quality of coders I'm seeing in East Asia. Some companies have figured that out. Some would still rather keep the bottom line low and clean up afterward.

    I realize that Qualcomm has competitors to fend off, but this leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Hutch Fan View Post
    You can temporarily block competition for STEM jobs with Asia by cutting the number of people we allow into the US.
    But you're only delaying the inevitable, and perhaps costing us the benefits of at least having the people on-shore.

    This won't solve the fact that we're being out-competed (and cost is an element of that).
    Companies may decide to fully off-shore the jobs, if we don't allow them to bring the talent on-shore.

    In general, we're behaving like modern unions here, trying to to solve a declining cost/benefit/alternative proposition through force by erecting governmental barriers to entry, instead of increasing our competitiveness with BRIC & other developing nations.

    When contracting firms are commonly charging $200/hr for on-shore technical talent, the rest of the world is going to say "That's crazy-high. I'd kill to make half of that." And they're all going to study difficult, uncool subjects like security encryption and network administration and middleware coding harder than us to get them, and coming from areas with lower costs-of-living where tech salaries are still a fortune, they'll loudly ask "why not us?"

    The world is getting smaller, and technology is removing many of the issues with remote work. If isolation is our only solution, we're only delaying the inevitable.
    Those are valid points, but the current system already distorts the market for labor by artificially suppressing wages across a number of industries. I am not advocating setting barriers, so much as I am supporting eliminating subsidies for tech companies to pay below market rates for labor.

    Reforming the H-1b visa system may encourage offshoring some jobs, but I don't really see the significant difference for US workers. They are being laid off for H-1b holders now. Moving the jobs offshore would affect the H-1b visa holders, but not US workers.

    It would be interesting to see ho the Dems would react to the Silicon Valley donors if they offshored jobs dramatically.
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    This is once again a bad idea post... I apologize for saying it... but it is just full of wrongheadedness. You stop H1B... and you will increase outsourcing. It's as simple as that.

    Once again you are cutting off your nose in spite of your face.

    This is like trying to get people out of poverty by raising the minimum wage. the businesses will get what they want... and because of your actions it will be worse for workers.
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    I have seen it in action Farmers Insurance (Zurich) has outsourced 50% of their workforce and imported mainly from India these people are paid lower wages and no benefits. This country needs to take care of it's own citizens.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by OzzieFan View Post
    This is once again a bad idea post... I apologize for saying it... but it is just full of wrongheadedness. You stop H1B... and you will increase outsourcing. It's as simple as that.

    Once again you are cutting off your nose in spite of your face.

    This is like trying to get people out of poverty by raising the minimum wage. the businesses will get what they want... and because of your actions it will be worse for workers.
    You are the one distorting the labor market. H-1B Visas are a subsidy which artificially depress wages. It is no different that how mass illegal immigration artificially depresses wages for low skilled US workers. The issue is that the companies don't want to pay market rates for labor and are connected enough to get pols in both parties to go along.

    Outsourcing would replace H-1b visa holders. The same H-1b Visa holders displacing American job holders. Companies engaging in the mass layoffs like Qualcomm should lose all H-1bs. If they need to eliminate jobs, they obviously don't need to be importing employees.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by The Iguana View Post
    The ones hired through our colleges, though, are not coming via H1-B's, but usually something like a TN visa. I think that's also less objectionable than the usual H1-B situation.

    The bigger question is a harder one to answer. Technology makes it far easier to move labor around, at least labor like this. That's going to drop living standards here in America - indeed, it already is.

    Having had to deal with such hiring issues myself, I will add one other note: I'm not impressed with the average quality of coders I'm seeing in East Asia. Some companies have figured that out. Some would still rather keep the bottom line low and clean up afterward.

    I realize that Qualcomm has competitors to fend off, but this leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
    The quality of coders in Asia is sometimes poor. Which is why having them increases the number of domestic managers needed. Who do I work for? Yes I was hired because of this issue.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by CheapSeats View Post
    You are the one distorting the labor market. H-1B Visas are a subsidy which artificially depress wages. It is no different that how mass illegal immigration artificially depresses wages for low skilled US workers. The issue is that the companies don't want to pay market rates for labor and are connected enough to get pols in both parties to go along.

    Outsourcing would replace H-1b visa holders. The same H-1b Visa holders displacing American job holders. Companies engaging in the mass layoffs like Qualcomm should lose all H-1bs. If they need to eliminate jobs, they obviously don't need to be importing employees.
    Outsourcing woudl not replace H1B. It would replace any worker. It isn't zero sum.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by OzzieFan View Post
    Outsourcing woudl not replace H1B. It would replace any worker. It isn't zero sum.
    The domestic workers are already being displaced by the H-1b visa holders. Again, I oppose subsidizing industries with below market rate labor.

    Explain why such subsidies are desirable.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by CheapSeats View Post
    The domestic workers are already being displaced by the H-1b visa holders. Again, I oppose subsidizing industries with below market rate labor.

    Explain why such subsidies are desirable.
    I don't refer to work permits as subsidies. I oppose government subsidies. I support free market. I don't believe we should protect labor markets or industries. If we have to protect them then they need to be reworked as they are no longer sustainable.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by CheapSeats View Post
    The domestic workers are already being displaced by the H-1b visa holders. Again, I oppose subsidizing industries with below market rate labor.

    Explain why such subsidies are desirable.
    So I'm not an expert on these classes of visas. In what way are they subsidized?
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by OzzieFan View Post
    I don't refer to work permits as subsidies. I oppose government subsidies. I support free market. I don't believe we should protect labor markets or industries. If we have to protect them then they need to be reworked as they are no longer sustainable.
    So, you believe it's "free market" for Google and Facebook to simply refuse to hire qualified Americans because they can H1B in Chinese and Indians 15k below market?

    And, you wonder why our workforce participation rate is so low?
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Hutch Fan View Post
    So I'm not an expert on these classes of visas. In what way are they subsidized?
    It allows employers to import a less costly labor force rather than pay market rates for labor. It is compounded by the fact that the employee is then tied to the sponsor which further limits compensation by limiting the imported workers' ability to negotiate for higher wages. A government policy which grants select industries discounted labor costs is a subsidy.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by John D View Post
    So, you believe it's "free market" for Google and Facebook to simply refuse to hire qualified Americans because they can H1B in Chinese and Indians 15k below market?
    That is, in fact, the definition of "free market". It's free of government barriers to competition in the labor market.
    Though the fact that the government issues them selectively makes it less free than it could be.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by John D View Post
    So, you believe it's "free market" for Google and Facebook to simply refuse to hire qualified Americans because they can H1B in Chinese and Indians 15k below market?

    And, you wonder why our workforce participation rate is so low?
    Even the regulated utilities are trying to get into the act by importing cheap help.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by John D View Post
    So, you believe it's "free market" for Google and Facebook to simply refuse to hire qualified Americans because they can H1B in Chinese and Indians 15k below market?

    And, you wonder why our workforce participation rate is so low?
    If you have certain companies that are not hiring as you like... go after the businesses, boycott them, etc. Protectionism is not the solution.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Hutch Fan View Post
    That is, in fact, the definition of "free market". It's free of government barriers to competition in the labor market.
    Though the fact that the government issues them selectively makes it less free than it could be.
    Agreed.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by barnbird View Post
    Even the regulated utilities are trying to get into the act by importing cheap help.
    Utilities have a large government regulation overhead. They already have low wages for domestic workers. Want to fix things... stop over regulation. And that includes the proposal here.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by OzzieFan View Post
    If you have certain companies that are not hiring as you like... go after the businesses, boycott them, etc. Protectionism is not the solution.
    That's not the issue.

    Crony capitalism is.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by OzzieFan View Post
    Utilities have a large government regulation overhead. They already have low wages for domestic workers. Want to fix things... stop over regulation. And that includes the proposal here.
    So will that mean lower rates for the public ? doubtful
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Hutch Fan View Post
    That is, in fact, the definition of "free market". It's free of government barriers to competition in the labor market.
    Though the fact that the government issues them selectively makes it less free than it could be.
    It is not a free market to use immigration laws to allow politically favored employees access to cheaper labor.

    We have immigration laws which limit the number of work visas. Allowing certain politically connected employers to have disproportionate access to certain classes of such immigrants artificially distorts the labor market in the exact same way that unchecked illegal immigration does.

    Let these companies choose between paying market rates for labor here or face the public repercussions of offshoring. Don't allow them to distort the labor market
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    I don't disagree that the process is applied unevenly:
    QuoteOriginally Posted by Hutch Fan
    the fact that the government issues them selectively makes it less free than it could be.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Hutch Fan View Post
    I don't disagree that the process is applied unevenly:
    So it isn't a free market and the government is using H-1bs to subsidize favorites. Just as I wrote.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by CheapSeats View Post
    So it isn't a free market and the government is using H-1bs to subsidize favorites. Just as I wrote.
    Sure, but ending the ability to allow employment of these legal immigrants does not make the market more free.
    Let these companies choose between paying market rates for labor here or face the public repercussions of offshoring.
    Allowing employers access to labor competition willing to move & earn here is a more-free market.
    Doing so equally among all employers vs. crony capitalism is the option that increases freedom.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Hutch Fan View Post
    Sure, but ending the ability to allow employment of these legal immigrants does not make the market more free.

    Allowing employers access to labor competition willing to move & earn here is a more-free market.
    Doing so equally among all employers vs. crony capitalism is the option that increases freedom.
    Are you advocating for open borders?

    I don't advocate ending the ability to employ immigrants. I favor limiting immigration. Which we do. Let these immigrants wait in line like everyone else rather than expediting them for political favorites.

    The H-1b system grants priority to certain classes of immigrants for the economic benefit of political favorites. The applicants are tied to their sponsors further artificially depressing wages.

    That s the system as it exists. My preference is forcing the political favorites to compete equally in the labor market,
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Hutch Fan View Post
    Sure, but ending the ability to allow employment of these legal immigrants does not make the market more free.

    Allowing employers access to labor competition willing to move & earn here is a more-free market.
    Doing so equally among all employers vs. crony capitalism is the option that increases freedom.
    What is the purpose of immigration policy?
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    Laying off locally born workers while importing more indentured labor from abroad may be a free market for capitalists, but it is not a free market for labor.

    I wonder at what point in time all of those laid-off workers became unqualified STEM workers compared to those from over-seas.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Judge Mental View Post
    Laying off locally born workers while importing more indentured labor from abroad may be a free market for capitalists, but it is not a free market for labor.

    I wonder at what point in time all of those laid-off workers became unqualified STEM workers compared to those from over-seas.
    It's not a free market. It is the very definition of crony capitalism.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by CheapSeats View Post
    It's not a free market. It is the very definition of crony capitalism.
    Again, what is the purpose of US immigration policy?
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    If folks cannot see the middle class is shrinking because of cheap labor then I do not know if they are paying attention to the housing market.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by CheapSeats View Post
    It's not a free market. It is the very definition of crony capitalism.
    You're just arguing with me out of habit. I'm not the guy arguing in favor H1B.

    But now that you mention it, I think the term you are really looking for here is plutocracy.

    And I don't expect Hillary or Donald to say anything about this issue you identify as a golden political opportunity. Their calculations are more cynical, and more exact.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Judge Mental View Post
    You're just arguing with me out of habit. I'm not the guy arguing in favor H1B.

    But now that you mention it, I think the term you are really looking for here is plutocracy.

    And I don't expect Hillary or Donald to say anything about this issue you identify as a golden political opportunity. Their calculations are more cynical, and more exact.
    Not really arguing with you. Repeating my earlier distinction between being pro free market and pro big business.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by CheapSeats
    The H-1b system grants priority to certain classes of immigrants for the economic benefit of political favorites. The applicants are tied to their sponsors further artificially depressing wages.
    And I'm not in favor of the complicated details of this class of visa.
    I'm in favor of more open immigration. (Just without the instant qualification for welfare state benefits upon arrival.)
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    What is the purpose of US immigration policy?
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by John D View Post
    What is the purpose of US immigration policy?
    It's had all sorts of purposes in history... encouraging population growth, quarantining disease, enforcing racial quotas, recruiting nuclear scientists...
    It's just another type of force we use on people based on what "we" want at the time.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Hutch Fan View Post
    It's had all sorts of purposes in history... encouraging population growth, quarantining disease, enforcing racial quotas, recruiting nuclear scientists...
    It's just another type of force we use on people based on what "we" want at the time.
    My belief is that US Immigration policy should serve the interests of US citizens and the nation.

    I believe the interests of multinational corporations and the Democrat Party should be secondary to that.
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by CheapSeats View Post
    If the GOP were smart, they would make H-1b Visa reform a major issue.

    http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/29/qu...ng-more-h-1bs/

    Some GOPer should propose tying revocation of H-1b's to domestic layoffs.
    Those idiots can't even figure out how to separate the issue of illegal immigration from legal immigration - and you expect them to figure out how to take advantage of H-1b visa abuse?
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    QuoteOriginally Posted by Inspector Gadget View Post
    Those idiots can't even figure out how to separate the issue of illegal immigration from legal immigration - and you expect them to figure out how to take advantage of H-1b visa abuse?
    Those pathetic bastards can't even muster a vote to de-fund Planned Parenthood - when they have video evidence those ghouls are selling dead baby parts.

    Reid showed them how to make this a budget issue - which requires 51 votes.

    McConnell and the rest of the pussies hide behind the filibuster - AGAIN
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