So...hockey thread?

[Oz-iz-God]

Are you Doug Armstrong? Come on now, be honest.

Also, I like the way Fabbri is looking but he will only be 19 at the beginning of next season. Even if they did decide he's ready can you really expect that much from him?

Dammit! Outed myself. I thought throwing Berglund and Ott under the bus might throw you off the scent...

I never ever thought Fabbri would impress like he did. I liked him, but like you, thought he would be 3 years away. Honestly, I was thinking Barbashev would be the guy that would force himself onto the team at some point this season. You just can't ignore how highly Hitch spoke of him in camp, though. Hitchcock clearly loved the kid and he's absolutely destroying the OHL for Guelph right now. Granted, that's a high scoring league but when combined with the staff's appreciation for his game, you have to wonder. He'll turn 20 midway through next season which is about the same age as Tarasenko, Schwartz and even Perron when they got the call. It'll all come down to whether or not they think he's gotten strong enough at his size to last a full season, IMO.

And remember - you don't have to expect much from him; we're only asking him to replace Lindstrom. Jaskin is a nice replacement for Berglund and the team's down a scoring forward as it is right now so replacing Ott with Rattie would allow us to actually role 3 lines instead of wasting either Sastny or Oshie on a line with scrubs like Berglund, Ott and Porter. Hell, if we're just looking to replace Berglund, a big guy with some speed like Yannick Villeaux could manage that and I don't think anyone expects him to be a world beater.

I'll never understand the Berglund or Ott deals. They were just silly from their inception.

[Moon Man 18]

Hell, if we're just looking to replace Berglund, a big guy with some speed like Yannick Villeaux could manage that and I don't think anyone expects him to be a world beater.

I'll never understand the Berglund or Ott deals. They were just silly from their inception.

I'm playing hockey on Thursday nights so if we need a Berglund replacement I'll gladly step in and go largely unnoticed every night for a fraction of the cost. I'll never understand his ineffectiveness out there. Big guy with skills. People would beg for what he has yet at the end of most games I find myself asking "Was Berglund in the lineup tonight?" Guy just disappears out there. Doesn't really do anything other than skate around. He'll have a good shift from time to time which makes it that much more frustrating for me. He has the ability to be a really solid NHL forward, but he seems content to coast.

I'm all for dropping him. Ott at least tries to play hockey, he's just not terribly good at it.

[two-hole]

I wish Ott had Bergie's body.

Or, if Bergie had half of Sobotka's engine, we'd be retiring his jersey in 15 years.

[John D]

Ott has made exactly one outstanding play since joining the Blues.

And, it was accidental.

[barnbird]

After watching their last two games vs the Kings and Sharks they look like the same old Blues.

[paulie walnuts]

Ott has made exactly one outstanding play since joining the Blues.

And, it was accidental.

Make that two.

[Oz-iz-God]

After watching their last two games vs the Kings and Sharks they look like the same old Blues.

Maybe you should stop looking for reasons to quit.

Or just stop watching. If all you see is the same old Blues, you're not paying attention anyway.

Allen's not ready and Brodeur is done. They need Elliot back.

[John D]

Maybe you should stop looking for reasons to quit.

Or just stop watching. If all you see is the same old Blues, you're not paying attention anyway.

Allen's not ready and Brodeur is done. They need Elliot back.

Count me in the camp of being hugely bummed that Allen's not ready.

[barnbird]

Maybe you should stop looking for reasons to quit.

Or just stop watching. If all you see is the same old Blues, you're not paying attention anyway.

Allen's not ready and Brodeur is done. They need Elliot back.

Yeah there is always something right ?

[paulie walnuts]

Allen is good, just not as good as he will be someday.

It's a long season. I remain hopeful.

[John D]

Yeah there is always something right ?

That "something" tonight is Jake Allen.

Avalanche may get 10.

[paulie walnuts]

The whole team was dogsh!t in the first two periods.

[John D]

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[barnbird]

Turned it off after the fourth goal the Blues looked to be on their heels in every period. The defense was awful with all the break away's for the Avs. Hitckcock better make some changes or kick some butt.

[JMolina]

The NHL regular season literally doesn't matter until the final 5 games. You can be hovering around the 9th or 10th hole in the conference and still eek into the playoffs. So I don't get excited about a Blues regular season win or loss right now.

[barnbird]

The NHL regular season literally doesn't matter until the final 5 games. You can be hovering around the 9th or 10th hole in the conference and still eek into the playoffs. So I don't get excited about a Blues regular season win or loss right now.

Old habits are hard to break

[STJOMO]

If I still lived in St. Louis, this team would break my heart one year after another. As it stands, I can at least back away from it since nobody around here seems to care about the NHL.

[JMolina]

If I still lived in St. Louis, this team would break my heart one year after another. As it stands, I can at least back away from it since nobody around here seems to care about the NHL.

You can credit the current league Commissioner who pretty much single-handedly has turned it into a 2nd tier sport.

[Indiana Dave]

Nice 7-2 win for the Blues over Sharks tonight after 2 losses against the Preds and Ducks. Oshie scores the hat trick.

[Oz-iz-God]

You can credit the current league Commissioner who pretty much single-handedly has turned it into a 2nd tier sport.

It's impossible to overstate the damage that giving ESPN the bird did to the NHL.

Sadly, ESPN does control the sports landscape. Their programming department decides what is mainstream. When Bettman spurned them (for reasons I still don't understand), he doomed the NHL to niche sport status.

Now he just has to hope that FSN is able to get a genuine foothold and can drive hockey back to being a legitimate big 4 sport.

[JMolina]

It's impossible to overstate the damage that giving ESPN the bird did to the NHL.

Sadly, ESPN does control the sports landscape. Their programming department decides what is mainstream. When Bettman spurned them (for reasons I still don't understand), he doomed the NHL to niche sport status.

Now he just has to hope that FSN is able to get a genuine foothold and can drive hockey back to being a legitimate big 4 sport.

Shows you how bush league they are when two games of the Stanley Cup finals are placed on a secondary outlet cable station that some people don't know how to locate.

[barnbird]

The worst mistake the league made was going on strike they never returned to anything near their status since, which was not great by any standard.

[Oz-iz-God]

Well, Ells has put up a .936 sv% with a 1.75 GAA since he came back and the Blues are 3-1 over those 4.

Like I said, it's not 'the same ol' blues' - this Blues team is unlike any I've seen. It has better offensive depth than the 2000 Presidents Trophy winner and while the D can't boast the top end of MacInnis and Pronger, it also doesn't have scrubs like Bergevin, Rierden and Persson logging significant minutes.

There's also much more tenacity, size and strength on this team. Where the 2000 squad was getting offensive from guys like Turgeon and Demitra - both very skilled - this team gets it from guys like Tarasenko and Backes, who will both score on you then blast you in open ice.

They're a completely different hockey team with a healthy Brian Elliott. I'm pretty damn disappointed in how overmatched Jake Allen has been, but if nothing else, he's been bad enough that the problem with the squad was pretty obvious. When they're confident in their goalie, they simply play better across the board. The defensive play isn't as frenetic and can convert quickly to offense, the offense is much smoother when they know they can take a few more chances with passes.

This is a really good hockey team, fellas. It means very little until the playoffs, but if you enjoy watching hockey, you'll enjoy watching this team when it's firing.

[two-hole]

That terrible stretch without Elliott and Schwartz sure felt like the same old blues. Outshoot a team 40-26 and lose on an odd man rush goal and a bad bounce goal. Fire puck after puck on net, but right into a goalie's abdomen and never really create great chances.

Since Elliott's and Schwartz's return, it's a different team altogether. With a healthy squad, it's an embarrassment of riches watching this team just wipe the ice with poor and mediocre teams and battle even the best ones on their own home ice.

I really thought we'd miss Sobotka, but Lehtera has been as good or better, and cheaper. And Elliott's performing like the goalie we always coveted. I think there are a couple unsung heroes as well. I really like Butler for his role, for instance. Lapierre is having a good season.

The greatest difference in this team vs. LY is the power play, both in style and in results. It was so frustrating watching 5 statues standing around flipping the puck back and forth. Now they move. And score.

[Oz-iz-God]

That terrible stretch without Elliott and Schwartz sure felt like the same old blues. Outshoot a team 40-26 and lose on an odd man rush goal and a bad bounce goal. Fire puck after puck on net, but right into a goalie's abdomen and never really create great chances.

Since Elliott's and Schwartz's return, it's a different team altogether. With a healthy squad, it's an embarrassment of riches watching this team just wipe the ice with poor and mediocre teams and battle even the best ones on their own home ice.

I really thought we'd miss Sobotka, but Lehtera has been as good or better, and cheaper. And Elliott's performing like the goalie we always coveted. I think there are a couple unsung heroes as well. I really like Butler for his role, for instance. Lapierre is having a good season.

The greatest difference in this team vs. LY is the power play, both in style and in results. It was so frustrating watching 5 statues standing around flipping the puck back and forth. Now they move. And score.

Lehtera didn't replace Sobotka, Ott did. We hadn't even engaged Ott's representation when talks with Sobie broke down. The Blues inked Ott within hours of Sobotka's decision to leave for Russia.

And we took a MASSIVE step down there. The loss of speed and actual puck grit has definitely hurt us, especially when Schwartz went down and Ott was called on to play on the 3rd line.

Sobotka could play on the 2nd line without embarrassing himself and was a major asset on the 3rd line. Ott, OTOH, is a disaster any time he's asked to do more than bang with Reaves and LaPierre. He's strictly a 4th line player and a below average one at that. I'd move LaPierre to the 3rd line before I'd put Ott back up there; he just wrecks it whenever he's on it.

If Sobotka's on the roster, Schwartz's absence hurts but not as badly. Without him, the Blues simply can't lose a forward and still roll 3 credible scoring lines.

[John D]

When I watch the team - and especially the powerplay - I know the spot on the ice where Tarasenko wants the puck.

When he gets it there, it's a goal.

That puts "tremendous" pressure on the other club to stop that from happening, and it opens up the ice for everyone else.

[Oz-iz-God]

When I watch the team - and especially the powerplay - I know the spot on the ice where Tarasenko wants the puck.

When he gets it there, it's a goal.

That puts "tremendous" pressure on the other club to stop that from happening, and it opens up the ice for everyone else.

Same spot where Hull always wanted it. Hell, every player in the league with a decent wrister wants that puck in the slot about 15 feet out and maybe 25 degrees to the goalie.

The difference is that if Tarasenko gets it somewhere where he doesn't have the shooting angle he wants, he'll fire a pass to someone that does. That pass across to set up Steens goal on the PP was just spectacular ice vision. He was in a spot where he could've fired the puck, but didn't have a great angle on the goalie. Hull would've fired away there (which isn't always bad; Jaskin set up Stasney's goal a few games ago off a bad angle shot that created a nice rebound) but Tarasenko has such good vision that he simply feathered it over to Steen, who had the much better angle.

Tarasenko's fighting some bad luck right now; he's had goalies make a few nice saves on him, fanned on a couple and then drew iron with 2 in the 3rd period last night, but his approach has been steady. He'll start scoring again soon enough.

[two-hole]

Helps his confidence when he's hit a scoring lull, but the team is still earning the fans free tacos every night.

[John D]

Same spot where Hull always wanted it. Hell, every player in the league with a decent wrister wants that puck in the slot about 15 feet out and maybe 25 degrees to the goalie.

The difference is that if Tarasenko gets it somewhere where he doesn't have the shooting angle he wants, he'll fire a pass to someone that does. That pass across to set up Steens goal on the PP was just spectacular ice vision. He was in a spot where he could've fired the puck, but didn't have a great angle on the goalie. Hull would've fired away there (which isn't always bad; Jaskin set up Stasney's goal a few games ago off a bad angle shot that created a nice rebound) but Tarasenko has such good vision that he simply feathered it over to Steen, who had the much better angle.

Tarasenko's fighting some bad luck right now; he's had goalies make a few nice saves on him, fanned on a couple and then drew iron with 2 in the 3rd period last night, but his approach has been steady. He'll start scoring again soon enough.

His release is so quick, it's like having a 5 on 3. Someone HAS to shadow him - no matter what. Even an inch of room and BOOM.

[paulie walnuts]

Hanging 7 on the Sharks twice in a week...feels good.

Team looks awesome right now.

[CCPMatt13]

Same spot where Hull always wanted it. Hell, every player in the league with a decent wrister wants that puck in the slot about 15 feet out and maybe 25 degrees to the goalie.

The difference is that if Tarasenko gets it somewhere where he doesn't have the shooting angle he wants, he'll fire a pass to someone that does. That pass across to set up Steens goal on the PP was just spectacular ice vision. He was in a spot where he could've fired the puck, but didn't have a great angle on the goalie. Hull would've fired away there (which isn't always bad; Jaskin set up Stasney's goal a few games ago off a bad angle shot that created a nice rebound) but Tarasenko has such good vision that he simply feathered it over to Steen, who had the much better angle.

Tarasenko's fighting some bad luck right now; he's had goalies make a few nice saves on him, fanned on a couple and then drew iron with 2 in the 3rd period last night, but his approach has been steady. He'll start scoring again soon enough.

His goals have gone down recently but your right, his presence on the ice is opening up the plays for Oshie/Steen/Backes. The passing chemistry the past week or so has just been wicked. When you don't give the opposing goalie even a chance to make the save, you are doing a lot of things right.

[paulie walnuts]

Vlad sure scored a beauty last night.

Is Brodeur still on the team?

[Oz-iz-God]

Yeah, he'll be a healthy scratch until they can figure out a graceful exit strategy.

They flat out stole that game last night. That was 40 minutes of garbage hockey, 10 minutes of mildly acceptable hockey and 10 minutes of good play. The talent gap was great enough that 10 minutes was good enough to get a W, but against any team other than one of the 2 worst teams in the entire NHL, that effort would've gotten them run off the ice. It's an effort we've seen WAY too many times this year (and oftentimes against good teams).

The 4 game winning streak is nice, but I still wonder if a major trade isn't needed to keep this crap from happening. The talent is there to win the Presidents Trophy and go on one of those streaks where they lose 6 games in 3 months. Yeah, they're that good. They just need to stop laying down once a week.

[paulie walnuts]

Yeah, he'll be a healthy scratch until they can figure out a graceful exit strategy. .

I think they should keep him around. He played decently and the two youngsters could benefit from his presence, both from a mentoring and competitive perspective.

[Oz-iz-God]

I think they should keep him around. He played decently and the two youngsters could benefit from his presence, both from a mentoring and competitive perspective.

You've got a low bar for decent. He was largely ineffective as well. Even his shutout only required 16 saves (and only a single legitimate scoring chance).

Sure, if you can manage to keep him on the roster and scratching him, so be it. Having an extra goaltending coach on the roster is fine when you have a bit of cap space to use on him.

But from what I saw, he wasn't even a credible backup goalie. A sub .900 SV% and a GAA of nearly 3 isn't good enough, even for a backup.

[two-hole]

His stats aren't fair to the way he actually played. Too many of those goals against him were the kinds against Ells last night. Giveaways at point blank range. Powerplay goals on cross-ice passes. And one terrible fluke bounce from near the red line. Someone will give us a 3rd or 4th rounder for him. Someone.

[John D]

His stats aren't fair to the way he actually played. Too many of those goals against him were the kinds against Ells last night. Giveaways at point blank range. Powerplay goals on cross-ice passes. And one terrible fluke bounce from near the red line. Someone will give us a 3rd or 4th rounder for him. Someone.

What would you like to wager?

[paulie walnuts]

Seriously, keep him around. Nothing like a HOFer lurking in the shadows to get the kids to pay attention.

[Oz-iz-God]

His stats aren't fair to the way he actually played. Too many of those goals against him were the kinds against Ells last night. Giveaways at point blank range. Powerplay goals on cross-ice passes. And one terrible fluke bounce from near the red line. Someone will give us a 3rd or 4th rounder for him. Someone.

Except that the .899 sv% is pretty much in line with what you'd expect for a 42 yr old goalie who gave up about a .903 sv% over the 4 years prior to this one. Also fluke bounces?

He's just gassed, man.

With Vokoun likely not able to come back due to illness and Bryzgalov already picked up off the scrap heap, maybe some team will get really desperate and flip us a nominal asset for him - but this is almost certainly who he is. He's a last gasp option for a team that's absolutely desperate. Most contenders are unlikely to find themselves in that boat.

[John D]

The line between "finished" and "the best" is .03

A save percentage of .93 is HOF caliber.

.899 is finished.

Performance businesses are amazing that way.

[Oz-iz-God]

The line between "finished" and "the best" is .03

A save percentage of .93 is HOF caliber.

.899 is finished.

Performance businesses are amazing that way.

It's like the old discussion about the line between minor leaguers and everyday starters - 1 grounder with eyes/week. That's the difference between a .250 hitter and a .300 hitter.

Granted, we've become a bit more sophisticated since that line of reasoning, but .300 still has a ring to it that .255 most certainly does not - just ask Jon Jay.

In hockey, however, that nominal distinction can lead to about about 1 goal/gm. If you figure on about 25 shots/game and 3 games in your average week, 70 goals in 75 shots gets you a .933 SV% and a 1.66 GAA; yup - that's unquestionably elite. 67 goals in 75 shots gets you an .893 SV% and a 2.667 GAA; yup - that pretty much sucks.

The number of shots in hockey are so large that small sample size caveats don't really apply and seemingly incremental differences can actually be pretty massive on the scoreboard.

Martin Brodeur is almost certainly the best goalie in hockey history. He's done to goalie records what Wayne Gretzky did to scoring records; he's been amazing. But time remains unbeaten and untied. Marty is no different.

[John D]

It's like the old discussion about the line between minor leaguers and everyday starters - 1 grounder with eyes/week. That's the difference between a .250 hitter and a .300 hitter.

Granted, we've become a bit more sophisticated since that line of reasoning, but .300 still has a ring to it that .255 most certainly does not - just ask Jon Jay.

In hockey, however, that nominal distinction can lead to about about 1 goal/gm. If you figure on about 25 shots/game and 3 games in your average week, 70 goals in 75 shots gets you a .933 SV% and a 1.66 GAA; yup - that's unquestionably elite. 67 goals in 75 shots gets you an .893 SV% and a 2.667 GAA; yup - that pretty much sucks.

The number of shots in hockey are so large that small sample size caveats don't really apply and seemingly incremental differences can actually be pretty massive on the scoreboard.

Martin Brodeur is almost certainly the best goalie in hockey history. He's done to goalie records what Wayne Gretzky did to scoring records; he's been amazing. But time remains unbeaten and untied. Marty is no different.

It's actually pretty amazing he can still put up an .899 at 42 years of age.

IIRC, that was Ryan Miller's goals against vs. the Blackhawks in last year's playoffs.

So, yeah, that pretty much sucks - if you're hoping to win a Stanley Cup.

[paulie walnuts]

I think he has value beyond the numbers.

[Oz-iz-God]

I think he has value beyond the numbers.

I think Jake Allen's play noticeably dropped off after Brodeur arrived and very few aging vets are truly the 'coach on the field' that they're referred to as. If Brodeur was going to have a massive impact on Jake Allen, I'd think that maybe you'd have seen some evidence of it over the prior six weeks. Did you? Was there anything at all in Jake Allen's play to suggest that Brodeur had a positive impact on him?

Elliott gives zero !@#$s about Brodeur's presence and shouldn't. In no sane world does Martin Brodeur present any kind of legitimate threat to his job. And when Allen's dressing every night and Brodeur is a healthy scratch, how much weight do you think Brodeur actually has in Jake Allen's mind? Clearly the organization sees Allen as the future and Brodeur as a stopgap.

Finally, Jim Corsi is seen as arguably the best goalie coach in hockey (Korn would be his chief competition and a guy I'd have loved to get in here). The guy's extremely respected throughout the league. I just can't imagine that Brodeur's going to unlock something in Allen despite having never coached before.

Ultimately, I've seen way too many washed up veterans live off the 'veteran leader' tag only to do dick as they expire. From Mike Vrabel to Mark Ellis and all points in between, most of these declining vets have their hands full pushing back the hands of time and are so wired to compete that they have very little interest in spending their valuable effort/energy training someone looking to take their job. Veteran presence is wildly overrated.

[two-hole]

http://toomanymenonthesite.com/2015/...es-time-split/

several potential suitors described herein.

[Oz-iz-God]

http://toomanymenonthesite.com/2015/...es-time-split/

several potential suitors described herein.

But here's the thing - that list keeps citing backups who's numbers really aren't appreciably worse than Brodeurs. Nasville, Minn, and TB are all explained by essentially saying "well the backup has put up a save% of about .900 w/ a GAA in the mid 2's and said backup is old".

That's all Brodeur has done. Why would a team surrender assets to move on from Nabakov to Brodeur when they're essentially the exact same guy?

Now the Islanders and Dallas may make a little bit of sense and would fall under the 'teams desperate enough to surrender a nominal asset' category, but frankly, I'm not sure the Islanders care that much; they'll ride Halak and have enough wiggle room on a playoff seed that I can't see them surrendering assets to get a marginal improvement for the 10 games they'll maybe play their backup in down the stretch. Moreover, their current backup is on a 2 yr deal for a pretty good sum of money. Dallas is presently looking like a long-shot for the playoffs and if they make it, it will be on Lehtonin's back rather than because of a backup goalie. If I'm putting $$ on a team, it's them as they know they'd be dangerous if they can just sneak in and every point is precious for them at this stage. But they're only a bad couple of weeks from deciding they're out of it altogether.

Again, Marty's just not very good these days. The article itself refers to Brodeur 'signing' with a team, so it's not really discussing trade scenarios as much as it is teams that might be willing to take him on if the cost is zero. Sure - I think a team would be willing to do something like that. I just don't see one surrendering an asset for him.

[John D]

Oz,

On the veteran thing.

There ARE guys like that. It's just far fewer than we think. And, it's easy to spot them once a team gels.

The 2011 Cardinals don't get a whiff without Berkman. And, his presence on the team had such a positive impact on Freese and other young guys it can't be denied.

But, in no way is this sort of thing automatic just because a guy was great.

If fact, oftentimes the self-absorption involved with being great restricts their circle of influence.

You have evidence on this one. Allen has done nothing but tank since Brodeur showed up.

He has little value as a player - and likely even less value as a clubhouse presence.

[Oz-iz-God]

Berkman had a massive influence in no small part because he produced.

If an aging veteran player comes to a team and simply trips over his feet for several months, nobody's gonna give a shit if he's a nice guy.

Berkman was huge for us because he was a 30 HR hitter who immediately garnered the respect of the clubhouse by performing. Once that happened, being a merry prankster was well received. Had he gone out there and hit .225 with 8 bombs, his joking would've been as well taken as Brendan Ryan's De Niro impressions after he forgot how to hit.

[John D]

Berkman had a massive influence in no small part because he produced.

If an aging veteran player comes to a team and simply trips over his feet for several months, nobody's gonna give a shit if he's a nice guy.

Berkman was huge for us because he was a 30 HR hitter who immediately garnered the respect of the clubhouse by performing. Once that happened, being a merry prankster was well received. Had he gone out there and hit .225 with 8 bombs, his joking would've been as well taken as Brendan Ryan's De Niro impressions after he forgot how to hit.

I don't disagree.

If Brodeur had pitched 3 straight shutouts for St. Louis, we'd all be having visions of Glenn Hall, instead of Ryan Miller.

BTW, even thought Ozzie Smith had a really good season @age 42, I don't think he was a positive influence on the 1996 Cardinals in the way Berkman was in 2011.

[Oz-iz-God]

I don't disagree.

If Brodeur had pitched 3 straight shutouts for St. Louis, we'd all be having visions of Glenn Hall, instead of Ryan Miller.

BTW, even thought Ozzie Smith had a really good season @age 42, I don't think he was a positive influence on the 1996 Cardinals in the way Berkman was in 2011.

Oh, no question. Performance doesn't guarantee a positive clubhouse presence. I just think the lack of it pretty well precludes it. I always think of the 03-04 Lakers full of ring chasers like Payton and Malone. Both guys actually played fairly well, but that clubhouse mix was just as caustic as it could be.

Like you said, there are just far fewer examples of successfully integrating a veteran personality into a cohesive clubhouse. It's why you should worry a hell of a lot more about how the player in question will actually produce.